Friends, But Not With, You Know, "Benefits"

QUESTION: Hi Chuck and Garland,

I love your site and appreciate your dedication to speaking truth to women and providing insight in the minds and behaviors of men! Okay, so here's my situation. I met this guy last summer and we were feeling each other out for a potential romantic relationship. And by "feeling each other out" I mean getting know each other through conversation and doing activities together...the old fashioned way :-) A couple of months into it, his ex-girlfriend came back into the picture and started messing with his head (i.e., "she still loves him but is in love with her current guy too" type of stuff (or so I was told)). She's been dating someone else since a few weeks after their breakup a couple of years ago. Needless to say, her resurfacing brought up some old feelings for him and we backed off. We remain friends, his ex is still in the other relationship, and he says that he has let the situation go and moved on. I provided the background info about his ex in the event that it's useful in helping you figure out what's going on in his mind.

My question concerns his behavior towards me throughout our friendship (pre, during, and post his situation with his ex). He cooks/bakes for me, bought me gifts (just because), flowers and dinner, introduced me to his friends/family (local and long-distance), brings me lunch at work (offering himself), and calls me regularly (I do not have to call him). He calls to see how my day is going and calls me when he goes to work and when he gets off from work. He recently just called to let me know that some of his family members are coming in town to see if I can come over for a cookout with them. He also makes plans for us to do things with his friends and their wives/girlfriends. Did I mention that we ARE NOT dating...and more importantly, we have discussed dating on multiple occasions (most recently around New Year's) and decided not to. During those discussions, I was open to dating simply for the fact that we obviously enjoy each others' company and our behavior in time invested in one another resembles that of a romantic couple. It is also important to note that we have never been sexually active and have only kissed a couple of times (the last of which was around New Year's). He's even shown some jealousy when I've dated other guys and even tried to make me jealous by mentioning that a mutual acquaintance who had expressed interest in him...however, I was not jealous and encouraged him to pursue it if he was interested. Why? Because we are not dating and therefore, we are free to do as we please.

I have platonic guy friends who are in no way shape or form this attentive/generous to me and do not demonstrate jealousy behavior so I don't understand what's motivating his behaviors towards me. You and I both know that a guy doesn't have to do all the things that he does in order to maintain a friendship a woman. Also, since we are not physically intimate I don't feel like I'm being maliciously taken advantage of. While I do appreciate and enjoy his friendship (he's a great guy), I don't understand why a guy would want to spend so much time with a woman, engage in boyfriend-like behavior, but not want to date? Simply, it's like having a gnat hovering around your plate that's never willing to land on it! What's the deal fellas?

Thanks!!

GARLAND: WOW! What a great question! I've got about four answers!

#1 - "Congratulations, you have a boyfriend that's waiting until you get married!"

All of the behavior you just described equals "dating without sex." Flowers, friends, phone calls, cookouts, gifts, lunches, dinners... it's all dating. You are spending quality time together and maybe YOU don't know it - but to the rest of us, you guys are dating. At least that what it seems to be, using the traditional parameters of courtship. Just off the top of my head, he seems to pay you more attention that a lot of the 'official' boyfriend's some of our questioners! Maybe he wants to get married before he brings sex to the table, or you consider my next answer...

#2 - "Congratulations, you've got a buddy to hang out with!"

"Hanging out" is a term that a lot of people use. To me, I've had female friends that I've 'hung out' with before and never formally dated or had sex with. Looking back - maybe dating or sex could have happened with some of these women if either of us had wanted it more - but what we had going on was cool enough for us at the time. Maybe in your guy's eyes - the two of you are "hanging out!' You spend a little more time together than normal platonic friends, and you're very close, but the dating chemistry, the sex and emotional intimacy and monogamous nature of a 'boyfriend / girlfriend' relationship just isn't there. So, maybe in his eyes you are just his 'special friend' his 'homegirl' his 'hanging out buddy," or you could consider my next answer...

#3 - "Congratulations, your good friend is confused as hell!"

Okay, this really isn't worthy of a 'congratulations' but I was on a roll - sorry. Maybe this fella' is just confused. He wants you close so he won't lose you; He doesn't want you too close because the verdict is still out on his feeling for his ex; He wants you close because you are probably great to hang out with; He doesn't want you too close because if the ex comes running with arms wide open he doesn't want to hurt your feelings by pushing you aside for her, or you could consider my next answer...

#4 - "You're his beautiful window dressing."

Maybe, just maybe this guy hasn't gotten over his ex, but he wants everyone, including himself to think that he has. Bear with me for a moment here.... there was an episode of 'Seinfeld' where this fellow kept making casual 'get together' plans with Elaine, but he never made a formal date request with her. She would reluctantly go out with him and then she'd ask, "Are we on a date?" He'd say, "No. Can't two friends have dinner without it being a date?" She'd accept it. Then on about the third 'un-date', he invited his parents to dinner with them and they were so impressed to meet 'his girlfriend.' The guy didn't tell them otherwise. This may be where you are. Maybe he needs you to give his life the appearance of normalcy. To him, he has a woman to show affection to, he has a woman to take out and spend time with, he has a woman that makes him feel like a normal guy and not some guy that can't get past a woman that has left him and moved on. To the family and friends around him, you are Johnny's new girlfriend; to them, Johnny has moved on so well; to them, Johnny is doing real good with his cute new girlfriend! So, there's a chance that you are an emotional crutch to him. That sounds pretty bad, but it might not be. He probably does care about you.

My gut tells me that he cares about you. While his actions seem thoughtful and warm, he just won't commit to dating on the terms you use to define that. If you are having a hard time with his halfway behavior or you are feeling that he's getting a certain level of emotional fulfillment greater than what YOU are getting out of your relationship, then I suggest YOU be the grown-up and back up off the situation. You control what he wants the most - YOUR TIME. Just start backing away and being less available to him and move on, either he'll accept that you are a ship that has sailed on and he'll do the same, or he'll realize that he's been foolish and step up to you with terms and conditions that only you'll accept.

Best wishes and best of luck to whatever decision you make!

CHUCK: You know, if you didn't already say that this man had an ex-girlfriend, I'd wonder if he wasn't gay and using you as a beard. But just from what you've said, it seems as though your relationship is a little more sincere than that.

What is this relationship? I've gotta say, damned if I know. Years ago, I was in a similar friendship relationship with a young lady. We hung out for a little while, and I hoped, that by being a friend to her, she'd eventually see that I wanted something different. Anyway, that didn't work out. She just wanted a friend, albeit a friend to go out on dates with, to be at her disposal, to call at 1 am NOT to have sex, etc. No, no, it's all right. I'm not bitter. Not at all.

Seriously, though, you are correct in your understanding that this friendship is NOT conventional. You are getting consideration from this man that women in long-term romantic and/or sexual relationships are not getting. Please scroll down the page. There are at least a half dozen women down there that would be envious of you, for the fact that he calls you regularly, alone. So make no mistake, you've got it good.

How good, however, is dependent on what you are looking for. Judging from your question, it doesn't seem as though you are pining away for this man, or are desperate to start a relationship with him. You seem more curious than anything else. But I'm curious, as well. Would you like to be in a relationship with this great, attentive guy?

I don't know how well you got to know his ex, or whether you did at all, but I'm tempted to suggest that you feel her out on him. If just to find out how he was in a boyfriend/girlfriend relationship. Because it could be that she chewed him, spit him out, and turned him into the gunshy basket case he is today. Or if she didn't do it, she might know who did.

That's what I believe has got him in the state he's in today. He may want to be involved with you, but it seems like he can't make that move. And because you're not placing any demands on him, one way or another, you are comfortable to be around. But as I have said before, men can live in a state of limbo for years, until they're forced out of it. But women need to feel that sesnse of progression. At some point, you're probably going to want that. And then you'll have to decide if you can get it with him.

Those Who Can, Do... Those Who Can't, Counsel?

QUESTION: I met this guy on the net a little over two weeks ago. Good looking, but more important, a profile that I could have written.

We talk for a week and it's all good. He appears to be the "whole package". Pretty much everything I like in a man and it seems like we "click". Much more so than any guy I've talked with so far.

Anyway....I wanted to see if there was any chemistry, and if he had put up a accurate pic. Me being the visual creature I am, and an internet dating vet for over a year, understand that pics can't compare to face to face. I want to test the 3-5 rule. So I suggested a meeting. Public place of course.

Never really got a yes or no...bottom line it hasn't happened yet.

We continue to talk and he has told me he is physically attracted to my pics (yes I sent him a few more) and my mind, but still no meet.

A few nights ago I asked him if he was indeed, as his profile said, ready to be in/looking for a relationship. He said yes. The next night during a brief conversation, I asked if he was "keeping his options open" (dating other prospects) and he said that he didn't think he was ready to date yet. That statement, when taken with what he had said in his profile, and during our conversations, set off all kinds of bells and whistles.

Here's the kicker...he IS a relationship counselor! LMAO!!!

I don't want to rush him but damn. I don't want to waste his time or mine. For me, face to face tells me most of what I need to know in terms of taking it a step further. If the chemistry is not there for both of us, thank you very much and I wish you much success and happiness. Simple.
I've dated many men from the net. Or should I say I've had many first dates. Not too many seconds. Most guys appreciate it if I don't waste their time and am honest up front. I dislike games. If it ain't there, it ain't there.

This guy intrigues me but this whole relutance to meet is getting a bit tiresome. He keeps "dancing" around it.

There are many fish in the sea. Some even ready to jump into my boat..no rod or net! Not sure how much more time I want to spend on this one if he is not really showing any interest in even getting near my hull, but just wants to sing to me from the water.

So tell me...am I being too impatient? Or is it time to pass this one by?

P.S. there is an event in a few weeks that he will be attending. I just received an invitation to the same event today, but have not told him yet or even decided if I'm going. I don't want to look like "stalker chick" but my curiosity is almost getting the best of me now.

CHUCK: Simply put: Pass this one by. I love it: A relationship counselor who can't resolve to meet someone he apparently likes to communicate with, and has seen, and doesn't think is a gargoyle. WTH?

There are some possibilities. He could be self-conscious about his looks, and fear rejection. He could, as a relationship counselor, have heard and seen too much bad stuff, and become gunshy himself in terms of starting a relationship. Or he could just be one of those people who is witty on the text, engaging on the phone, but a drip in person.

Or he could be playing hard to get, realizing that the reluctant suitors can frequently seem more fascinating than the eager ones.

Either way, it sounds as though you're tired of games, so don't play them anymore. Stop asking him to a physical meeting. I'm not suggesting that you stop being this man's friend, because his reason may be legitimate. But just in case it is not, stop chasing him fo a while. See if his attitude changes any then. Thanks for the question.

GARLAND: Thanks for your question! Uh... let this one go. Please.

Chuck gave this post the perfect title. Dating this guy is probably a lot like working for a company where the most unlikely people rise to management positions. They can't do the job, but they have somehow managed to stumble into a position where they are in charge of people who can. This dude gives relationship advice and yet can't seem to get into one himself.

Let me look at that last line - "yet can't seem to get into one himself."

Hmmm, that may or may not be correct now that I think about it. This fellow might NOT be able to commit or start a relationship - then again - maybe he can and he is just choosing not to get into one with you. Maybe you are too much for him and you'd see right through the lame parts of his game; Maybe he wants to pretend to get involved with someone - there are some people out there that love 'the hunt' but hate 'the kill'.

Frankly, it could be any number of reasons why he's acting like a lame duck. But my advice, just like Chuck's - let this poser go. He's playing games or he's scared out of his mind, either way - you can find bigger and tastier fish to fry.

Best wishes to your quest-

Ball Out of Play!

QUESTION: Dear Chuck and Garland,

I just came across your website and thought I could make use of your wonderful insight.

I have a crush on a guy who works in my building. He is not a co-worker. My building consists of several different agencies. Anyway, I cross paths with this guy semi-frequently. I felt like I was getting the go-ahead cue from him; i.e lots of eye contact with no turning of the head when I caught his eye.He was also selling candy for his daughter one day and I found out his name and a little bit about him.

To make a long story short, a friend (female) who sort of knew him from another place he used to work called him at his desk described me to him and asked if he wanted my number. He told her that he knew exactly who she was talking about and if I wanted him to have it then I would give it to him myself. So I took it upon myself to call the same desk she called and dialed his extension. It was his voicemail and I left a message leaving my number. It was a professional message just telling him to feel free to call if he would like to.

The very next day the building had a safety-drill. Believe it or not I'm kind of shy and nervous acting, So when he was nearing me, I would unconsciously walk the other way. Other co-workers noticed this stating that he was close enough to kiss me and I walked the other way.

So months passed and he never called. I still see him around all of the time. We are always very cordial. I'm not the type of girl thats going to act stank because a man didn't call me. There was a time when I thought I lost my phone around where his office is. He heard(not saw but heard, meaning he knows my voice) me asking someone in the office and immediately jumped up out of his cube and tried to help me look through the trash and so-forth.(That was a couple of months back) So anyway, I'm starting to notice those looks again. He will look at me and when I catch his eye he will not look away. There was one specific time when I was in my car and he was walking with someone in the lot. His lips were moving and my windows were down. I literally thought he was talking to me because he was staring at me while his lips were moving, but I figured if I couldn't hear him then he must not be talking to me. I am 26 and I'm willing to guess he's 6 or 7 years older (okay I know he is..google is a wonderful tool) My first impression of him is that he is shy. I am not the only person who notices his behavior. One guy that I work with has observed all that I'm telling you now and says he has no doubt that this guy is interested. So my question for you two is is the ball still in his court? or should I try a different angle? Sometimes I think that he thinks that if he stares at me enough I will be bold enough to pursue again, but after being rejected by him, I'm twice shy

ShyinSeattle

P.S. No ring on the left hand

GARLAND: Thanks for the question Shy One.

I personally love the whole, Ladies makin' the first move. My wife did that with me and I've been happy ever since. I like to think she's been happy ever since too!

Is the ball in his court? Actually, the ball isn't even in play anymore. He sees you, you see him. He smiles at you, you smile at him. He stares at you you stare at him. He passes you, you pass him back. Days go by, weeks, months...years?

Sweet and innocent is cute by both of you! Honestly! But one can only put but so much sugar in one's coffee before it becomes undrinkable. It is time to set this party off!!!

As a guy, I'm not going to play visual touchy-feely for weeks and months and be too shy to formally introduce myself and strike up a conversation. Life is just too short for everyone to be gun-shy. Take the shot! This cutesy, bashful non-sense is a little weak.

The ball is not in his court and it's not in yours either - it has bounced off the court and rolled across the street and is now sitting in some bushes. Go pick it up and spike it on him! Okay, okay

- first, ask yourself are you ready for a shy guy. Because if this guy is so timid or so intimidated that he can't even strike up a conversation with you - how in the world are you ever going to get a first kiss out of him? And let's hope that 'other' things don't require this much prodding.

But if you think he's all that and you want to see what's what - then go take the ball and put it in your court. You know that YOU'RE all that [and he does too] so, just walk up to him and say, "Hey Kevin, I need some coffee and some company, you up for a quick walk over to the Starbucks?" (How do I know there's a Starbucks near you? Because there's a STARBUCKS near EVERYONE!!! ) Have some conversation planned so you won't freeze up in case he tries to act cool and unphased, and just see where things go. But go ahead and take the ball into your court because obviously this chap isn't going to.

CHUCK: Garland, this ball didn't just roll into the bushes. Old Man Johnson next door found it in his yard and took it into his house! Now somebody's gotta go get it.

Okay. Enough with the ball metaphors.

It does seem like this guy is shy and hesitant to approach you, ShyinSeattle. However, let's acknowledge the part you've played in this fiasco. During the safety drill, when he was physicaly approaching you, who knows what he intended to do? Most likely, he was going to try to talk to you. But when you moved away from him like he had oozing sores or something, that may have confused him.

Two shy people are going to have a rough time kicking any relationship off. And engaging the services of third party facilitators, like your friend, just makes me think (forgive me) of high school. Unless somebody takes things further than just being cordial and maintaining eye contact, you guys will be at retirement age before someone makes a move. You don't want that, do you?

I'd say, take the bull by the horns. I know no one wants to be rejected. That's why he retreated so far after the Safety Drill Snubbing. But it seems as though you are both feeling one another, so why no just commit to it? Rather than doing yet another Google search on Shyboy

(internet= Devil), take Garland's advice, and ask him to join you for coffee. If he runs away screaming, oh, well. But he will probably surprise you.